Revolutionizing Sales Teams and Business Growth W/ Doug Mitchell | EP 94

Speaker 1: 0:01

Welcome to Never Stop Building, where we discuss all things business, growth and leveling up to become the most elite version of yourself. We're here to challenge fear and shatter doubt. Let's dive in what is up, everybody. Welcome back to Never Stop Building. I'm your host, Sam Kaufman, as always super pumped and grateful to be here with you today. I've got a special guest. A good friend of mine, Doug Mitchell, is here with me. As I've said multiple times, I'm not going to bother butchering Doug's intro. I'm going to let Doug talk about Doug here for a minute. Doug, welcome to the show man. Who are you?

Speaker 2: 0:40

I appreciate it, brother. It's an honor to be here, and I'll butcher it myself, don't worry, perfect. My name is Doug Mitchell. I've been building sales teams for 14 years now, so much so that I started doing it full time as a consultant. I also have the Building Great Sales Teams podcast and, dude, I'm excited to be here. Let's chop it up, perfect.

Speaker 1: 1:03

See, look at that. I would have found something in there and screwed it up. I would have been like he's building really good sales team. I would have just screwed up once, undoubtedly.

Speaker 2: 1:13

You know what you did screw up my first intro. I remember that.

Speaker 1: 1:17

See, I'm not surprised, so for any long time listen.

Speaker 1: 1:21

Doug was one of my first guests when I started the podcast two years ago and Doug started his podcast right about the same time I started. We connected in a mastermind and we hit it off pretty quickly. Same age-ish kids, we just had such similar business, family faith, entrepreneurial journey going on. We connected. But I had him on the podcast. His audio connection was awful and I was really insecure as a podcast host and so I didn't stop him or the episode which I know now. I should have just been like, hey, doug, shut the fuck up, we have to restart this, your shit's all messed up. But at the time I was like so nervous and insecure I was just like I can't, what do I do if I stop recording? I don't know how to like. So I just let Doug talk for like 50 minutes with like this horrific chopped up audio. I introed him terribly.

Speaker 2: 2:10

We've come a long way, I mean they say go back and listen to Joe Rogan's first podcast. It's a mess, right, you know, and that's how everybody starts. That's the beautiful thing about it. Reps fix everything.

Speaker 1: 2:24

They really do and it's cool. It's really cool to like have you back. I know that you're hundreds of episodes in your podcast. I'm breaking the hundred into the hundreds myself now. Like it's really really, really cool that like now we're connecting again, but like we stayed consistent with it, bro. Like how many people do we know that started their pot right when we did and they don't have one anymore?

Speaker 2: 2:48

Like that stat. What is it like? Most podcasts don't podcast, don't last past seven episodes. That stat is real. Like most of our friends started, one didn't, didn't follow through with it. Whatever the case is, weren't, weren't committed to the content, weren't committed to to the podcast itself and you know what. To be fair, it became a favorite of mine very quickly, out of the plan we got laid out for us, out of all the advice we've gotten from our coaches, our mentors, all that and so like. The podcast scene has been just just. If I wasn't in B2B, if I wasn't in business at all, I would still be podcasting on something else. It's just a blast for me.

Speaker 1: 3:28

Dude one. I actually couldn't agree with that more. I was telling somebody yesterday like this is my favorite content medium for myself, like I would do that, I do this. Even like recently ramping up production of the podcast. Like this never feels like work for me. I love this, like I would love to even take this to a whole other level where, like have my own studio, you fly in in person, like I have like a vision for like way down the road. But, yeah, dude, tell me so. Look, there's a few things I would like to get your take on while we're talking. So you build great sales teams. I've been talking for a few months now about how I believe the consumer behavior, consumer buying behavior, has changed in the in the B2C market a bit this year different psychology, different, different mentality from consumer, and now I don't think people have stopped buying. I think people are buying a little differently and I'm curious your take on that and what you've seen consulting clients, your own clients. What is your take on that?

Speaker 2: 4:32

perspective. Well, I think people are buying less impulsive, right? So they're not taking the first, second or third bid, you know, and they're doing their own research. They're, they're getting incredibly more educated because, I mean, everything's gone up, you know, obviously, everything's gone up 50 to 100%. I mean, I forgot what I was buying the other day. I was like no way, this is $8. It was like what was it? It was like butter, it was butter, and it was like $5 for the four pack and like $8 for the eight pack and I was like there's no way this is a dollar for a stick of butter. It's just insane to me.

Speaker 1: 5:09

It's a little.

Speaker 2: 5:10

Yeah and so. So now everybody's salary in my mind, everybody's salary, everybody's income got basically cut in half last year. Yeah, you know, over time we all didn't realize it. Now we're staring at it in the face, you know. And so when somebody is spending on luxury items, when they're spending on remodels, when they're spending on home services, I mean it's just that much more important that that dollar, how much it means to them. So they're going deeper into the conversation than you would normally expect.

Speaker 2: 5:40

And and yeah, I think sales teams in general, sales people and companies got soft the last couple of years because there was a bunch of money in the marketplace and now there isn't, and now everything's tightening up. So they have to actually perform when they get in front of that customer. And it's more and more important now, you know, because now instead of there being 10 customers that want their product, maybe there's three, and so now their conversion rates almost have to triple or they have to be bringing in three times as many leads from outside markets, maybe traveling further. Whatever the case is, they've got to figure out a way to pivot that KPI to bring in the same business they were doing last year. But to me they were having to work three times as far.

Speaker 1: 6:24

That that echoes what I've been kind of sharing and like I shared this with the sales team at the remodel business. I was like guys, slow the fuck down, slow down. Like the, the, the sales cycle is longer. Now you have to go deeper into the relationship. You can't push the close anymore like this. You have to slow down the process. The customer needs to.

Speaker 1: 6:49

It's all trust right now, like in, oh, have decreased in value and trust has rocketed and so, like I've been sharing this kind of was like a theory I sort of thought of this year, but like no, let we talk about no like and trust all the time with sales. But I have this theory that the, the see the cycle for the consumer will dictate which won't. Like there's a hierarchy. It's not no like in trust, 33% to piece and like a pie, it's like a triangle and different consumers have different top priority hierarchies and I think just trust right now, I think consumers are just kind of like distrusting because you said it right, like money is tightened up. I also think a lot of people got screwed 2019, 2021, like screwed.

Speaker 2: 7:37

I mean, yeah, look at, look at our spaces. You know that we're in the mastermind groups, that we're in the investments, that people got screwed over on the coaching programs, like there, there was so many, so much money out there. People were willing to spend on three things instead of one and they didn't audit them. And then, all of a sudden, they're looking back at last year and they're realizing, oh well, that pulls got a crack in it or that remodel job was was, you know, they didn't do a great job at that. You know, all of a sudden, they're auditing these things they spent money on last year and I'm equating it, you know, obviously, construction to our, our mastermind groups. But we're realizing we didn't get what we were owed, you know, and we didn't, and they didn't do what they said they were going to do and they got away with it. You know, whether it's home service companies, whether it's, you know, masterminds, you know influencer, everybody got away with it because it was so flush and nobody was paying attention for a couple years and now everybody is.

Speaker 2: 8:30

I. I couldn't agree more.

Speaker 1: 8:32

Yeah, that's a little. It's definitely. It is nice though. It's nice to be on a podcast with you. It's nice to be. I was on a podcast with another mutual friend of ours last week. I have it's nice to have some of the people that, like I connected with early on that I felt a really strong connection with. I'm still connected with them. I still feel like I vibe with them, and the very people who I was always like it's a lot of them have proven that my was totally was not wrong. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 2: 9:06

Yeah, so trust your yes, yeah, you're either results of the marketplace or a result of your execution. You know, and I think you know even even sections within my business for a result of the marketplace where I was like, okay, I was successful because there was a lot of money in the marketplace in that section of my business, you know. But as far as my personal brand, that's a result of execution and and podcasts like this.

Speaker 1: 9:30

I do agree, and it's lasted.

Speaker 1: 9:32

I completely agree with that and I liked your point about like our conversion rate was abnormally high for a few years. It dipped this year to what I really I think like at the remodel business at least taking the personal brand and the coaching aside and we dipped to like 28%, which which is industry average for a home service remodel. But when your team, when you're accounting department and your production department and your sales department are used to 53% and you go to 28% and on top of that, I think that leads have gotten significantly more expensive. Like, yeah, whether whether you're quantifying that from I had to travel further or I'm paying for ads, which I do love, or I'm making content, it's gotten more expensive to actually intake the lead. And I think when you have leads have gone up in price. Customers are requiring more from salespeople. There's less money on the street. I think this is a. I think we're in a season right now we're like I think a lot of people are about to go out of business.

Speaker 2: 10:36

I, I, I yeah, to be honest, it's a. In my mind, it's like an overcorrection. You know, yeah, it's an overcorrection of the marketplace and, and maybe the next couple of years, it'll level back out to like 2019 numbers. You know, yeah, um, but we are, we're going to have to, we're going to have to be a little hungry for a little bit, if that makes sense, you know, and be okay with that. It's going to make a sharp brid, though, like what you're talking about the lead cost going up it. It hopefully it's shaking some entrepreneurs and and business owners into paying attention to their, their journey, their process, right, which is okay.

Speaker 2: 11:14

Once I get that lead, what am I doing to reinforce my brand, my, my values and my execution throughout that whole customer journey? You know, am I building value before we even stepped foot in the home? Am I following up properly? You know, now, all of a sudden, it's not just about all right, I paid for it. You know, this is my cost per cost per lead. This is my customer acquisition costs and my conversion rate.

Speaker 2: 11:41

Those were like three KPIs Everybody knew, but now they're paying attention to what happens in between those things, versus just the presentation or just the salesperson. You know, now. Now we're paying attention to the, the follow-up conversion rate. Now we're paying attention to okay, are we actually building value before we get to the home, you know? And if you're not doing those things right now, start auditing your entire process and create as many KPIs as you can along the way and then start picking out the ones that you think you can actually pivot and and and create some increases in your conversion rates through it, because I guarantee a lot of the companies that you're competing against aren't adjusting. They're still running on the 2021, 2022 game play. They haven't adjusted and they're not ready for 2024, which I think it's going to get a little bit worse before it gets better.

Speaker 1: 12:30

I, I completely agree it. Interestingly, from an observant perspective, I actually think there's more for the companies adjusting. I think that 2024 and 2025 could actually be the best 24 months they've ever seen, if they adjust to the marketplace. And then 2026 and beyond, like, or whenever we go to 2019 numbers you're talking about scalability that, like, I don't think companies would even be prepared to handle if they adjust properly now and I've been I've been saying this on this podcast since March.

Speaker 1: 13:07

I have literally started releasing podcasts since March hey, the market's changing. Hey, I'm watching this shift. Hey, I'm watching my sales team. I'm watching objections are changed, like everything that worked isn't working. It's just not. It's a complete. Now I'm not. Let me let me be clear. Calling leads back within an hour Still working, always going to work. Yeah, showing up to appointments still working. Calling and sending we sent videos to introduce. The sales team sends videos to introduce themselves prior to the appointment still working. What stopped working was the speed that we were trying to close, like the how we go over the estimates line by line or don't go over the estimates line by line, like the things that didn't matter 12 months ago. I started noticing in March we were getting nose for things that were like they don't. And I remember when it started I was like looking at sales reps oh my sales team be like. That can't be the true reason.

Speaker 2: 14:04

That's never had. Nobody does that, nobody says no for that reason, that's it.

Speaker 1: 14:07

And then happened again, happened again. And then it was like customer was like well, we found somebody for like, like, and we saw like $100,000 projects. Like we saw a very high ticket and I thought like, oh, we found somebody to do it for 97,000. I've never 3%, like three points. You dipped over three point, but we provided all this value. Our contract is this it's so good for you. Blah, blah, blah. They're like yeah, we don't care, three grand. And I was like everything changed.

Speaker 2: 14:33

Like yeah, and so so much of our, our scripts, our sales pitches and our processes were built around value. It's like, hey, you're either high ticket, high value, or what are you doing? You know what I'm saying. Why are you spending the time on it? Why are you busting your ass? And that was the conversations we were having the last couple of years.

Speaker 2: 14:54

And even even you know a big part of my, my programs that I was putting in the company was increasing their, their cost per ticket, you know, or their customer acquisition, basically their per ticket rate. We were increasing that. Instead of, okay, increase the closing rate, we were increasing the. Hey, we're going to do some add-ons, we're going to get some extras in here, we're going to get some premium products in here. And now the conversation is no longer that it's back to the conversion rate and it and it's back to getting more opportunities because we don't have enough at that volume and the conversion rate is not high enough because it's so competitive, because people will say no to value, because they got to make that dollar stretch. You know what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 15:38

Dude 100%. We, from 2019 to the start of this year, I would probably say 50% or more of our appointments were met with. I can't believe you got showed up. Nobody shows up, nobody has to come. This year, I would say 90% of our appointments are cool. We got three more people coming out. We'll let you know.

Speaker 1: 16:00

Like competition was nowhere, and now it's because those those same people that didn't show up are desperately showing up again, which is again so it's like a competitor Now, now, now. All that being said, I love it. This is entrepreneurship. I love this. This is like grassroots for me. This is how I started. I fought for my life Like I love this. I didn't love it when it started. I'm not going to lie and sit here Like in the like. There were times this year where, like, I was like I don't know if we're going to like make it Like. This is tough, like this is this is not what, what I? Because when you, when you build a business to scale and then have to do all of this, like the expense of adjusting when you're in multi seven figures versus, like in a hundred thousand dollars, company is totally different. It's totally different.

Speaker 2: 16:47

Yeah, and I was like you're leveraged to the gills too.

Speaker 1: 16:49

For sure, yeah, especially when you invest in all those things for two years that nobody delivered on you know what I'm saying?

Speaker 2: 16:55

Yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 16:56

And so I. So I just want to like, do you resonate with me at all? And that, like I'm. You said you said we're going to have to be hungry for a little bit. Yeah, I like feeling hungry. I've gotten this year, I've gotten in a place by this point I'm enjoying feeling hungry. I'm kind of digging the like, the risk again, the hunger, the like. You know what I'm saying. It's like closing deals and like making mood and like even like podcast and coaching, consulting clients. It's like each one is a bigger win now. It's like I did it. We're like before, when it just rolls in. I don't like being an order taker, I like adjusting to the market.

Speaker 2: 17:33

Yeah, I mean, the whole reason for my career the first decade was because I'm basically a masochist and a self-sabotager, right. So it's like I enjoy problems, I enjoy solving problems, overcoming it, and then I'm on to the next one and anytime and I say self-sabotager, I'm self-sabotaging when I don't have a problem and it's like all right, I gotta create one, I gotta create some challenge. You know, that's why I started playing rugby at like 28 years old.

Speaker 1: 18:04

You know, it's like you're gonna beat up yeah.

Speaker 2: 18:06

Yes, create some adversity, you know, but anyways, so much. So now that I'm like out of you know, the sales work game, I basically I've created three, three concepts in one for myself, right? The first one is, obviously, it's a way more competitive marketplace. What I do is expensive, right, and so it's a lot more competitive and it is it almost becomes a luxury item because what I do is going to help you scale. But you have to see that future. You have to have that abundance vision. They know that you're going to get there and there's going to be a massive ROI from it. You know I'm deliverable based, so I could care less about your ROI. I'm delivering a sales program to you, you know, but obviously I want you to see some huge returns from that, and a lot of my clients have. But, again, like you said, more competitive marketplace, right. The second thing is I just started at the end of 2022. I started operating my business on core values and that was my sales work at the time and I didn't build it on core values and so it systematically destroyed my business and I. It was one of the greatest decisions I ever made, you know, and that sounds crazy because I went from a seven figure business to a multi six figure business, now consulting, right. But that was the second thing I did. I started operating on core values and the third thing I did at the same time, so competitive marketplace, operating on core values.

Speaker 2: 19:39

Now you know, and I started architecting my life right, and what I mean by that is, you know, pretty much, I don't. I don't take a call before nine for the most part. I have some groups that I'm in that have a call at eight, 30. And then I I don't schedule anything after four, monday through Friday. And then if I work evenings it's because I'm choosing to my family's at Sunday school on Wednesdays or something like that, and I don't have anything to go to there. You know it's on on on weekends. I'm up before everybody else getting a few hours of working. But it's very intentional, right. And so I did. I started doing all those three things pretty much at the same time and I'm like, why am I not making millions again?

Speaker 2: 20:24

It's like I got to go through this filtering process for this year and it is it'll be a year, at the end of this year, kind of my my one year mark of consulting full time, you know, and so you know you're saying that you enjoy that competitiveness, that challenge and everything. Well, I enjoy it so much. I created three at one time, essentially.

Speaker 1: 20:44

That's incredible. I have a few. I want to kind of go a little narrower and deeper on some of the things you said I will share with you, though it's so. I've been fired from my own company, so I'm, I'm.

Speaker 2: 20:57

I'm out of relations, thank you, so I'm now just the founder, and 2024 is my going full time.

Speaker 1: 21:04

I'm going all in on my purpose, my architecting, my coaching, consulting the things that really fulfill me the most and I'm I'm scared and excited and it's nice to hear you say this because you're you're 11 months into that sort of transition and I'm excited to you and I are going to see each other in a couple months. We got other, we got stuff coming up, but, like, I'm excited to talk with you through that, through 2024.

Speaker 2: 21:28

So so I want to share that.

Speaker 1: 21:30

So you said implemented core value. I really want to touch on this a little bit because I think there's a lot of value here for people. You said you implemented core values at the end of 2022 and it destroyed your business, and I want to really want to go deep on that because I am a firm believer that any company that did not build their company on core values, once implemented, will strip their business down to framing, and they will. Either they will be left with a choice. They can they can scrap it, because sometimes that's what needs to happen, or they can rebuild it. But if you truly implement core I don't mean print a poster, hang it up and let everybody go about their business If you truly inject core values and core value accountability into a business that had none, you shake up everything.

Speaker 1: 22:20

You shake up your client base, you shake up all of your staff. You shake up all of your processes. You shake up like everything. Are you willing to go into a little bit more detail on what that was like, like how it's why you did it, what it was like doing it and then what the aftermath kind of looked like?

Speaker 2: 22:38

Absolutely so. The reason that I did it is because I wanted. I wanted this life that my mentors and coaches at the time were telling me about and that they truly displayed in hat and in my cloudy was a great example of that, you know, and he was somebody that that you know. He just naturally mentors everybody around, right. And so we had several conversations about this and he just he doesn't pull any punches, right, and I mean like two dinners total that I still think about today.

Speaker 2: 23:09

Yeah, I'm saying, and he didn't pull any punches and he's like you're pussyfoot in this thing, you know, I'm saying you're basically going soft on this whole core value thing because I had told him about an individual that I had in my business that I knew was violating our core values in this personal life. Right, and, and it's because I used to do it with him back when he first started with a company, you know I'm saying, yeah, and so it was so hard for me to implement these things because basically, I was the newest hypocrite, right, I used to do all this stuff in my past. I overcame that. I implemented core values, my personal life that was going amazing Got remarried to my wife, great relationships with my kids and everything and like I'm I'm killing it in my personal life, but in the business it's this like thing in the back of my head. Hey, you know that your leadership is not doing this too. You know, I'm saying and so this guy was in a leadership position and fortunately I got lucky and he made a decision for him MDM 21. He violated our core values with another person in my company and so it became a company problem at that point and so it took nothing.

Speaker 2: 24:18

That was easy, right, that was very easy to do. Yeah, to execute on that core value, which was integrity, right, and so I cut him loose and that was about 1.1 million of my business at the time. Right, he was the regional over that piece of the business and so everybody stayed on because they understood it was a core value decision and they all said that they were good with it. And then systematically like and then that was the thing too, he had been with me for seven years. So I set him up with a new contract. At&t was our client. I set him up with a new AT&T contract. I made sure he got what he needed to make a living.

Speaker 2: 24:59

I didn't want to destroy the guy you know what I'm saying, and you know, hindsight, I still don't think it was a mistake. But most people would say that was a mistake because he started recruiting people that he had worked for him before to his new company, so on and so forth, and eventually I just got to the point where it's like, hey, you said, once you strip it down to the frame, you make a decision to scrap it or not. Well, I made the decision to scrap it. I was not passionate about the business anymore. I was not. You know, the client was violating our core values all the time, you know, and asking us to do things they should never ask us to do. They were, you know, not showing up in the ways that they were supposed to show up for the customers that we signed up. So imagine you don't have control of the fulfillment process and you have to trust the client to fulfill, you know. And so, you know, I decided to scrap it. And so I still had my solar division left in the business, you know, and that's what we're gonna focus on. We're gonna invest everything in solar and, unfortunately, myself and my VP at the time came to a head at the end of the year.

Speaker 2: 26:02

I was like, hey, 2023, we have got to cut commissions. You know and here was my thoughts behind it, and you know it was exactly what you said. I knew it was gonna get more competitive. I knew that consumers were gonna have to make smarter decisions around money and to that point, in my mind solar was taking advantage of the marketplace. Solar, you know, customers didn't understand it. They didn't understand that the salesperson was only giving them the exact offset they needed to offset their bill, when the salesperson could have maybe saved them 20, 30, 40 bucks a month on their energy bill and not taking this big rip commission right. And so the companies that were recruiting the most people had the highest commissions, the flashiest cart, all the things right.

Speaker 2: 26:45

And I didn't wanna be that company. I wanted to be a company built on core values and I wanted to be a company that took care of the customer. Because, you gotta understand, sales orgs oftentimes don't have control of the filament process or the customer service process. They can be there for the customer as a middleman and make sure that the fulfillment process happens and push that through and everything and give the customer communication on the way, but at the end of the day a sales org can't install that product. And so I came to my VP and I was like look, we cut commissions by 30% and we invest that money into an EPC and we start our own EPC. We get a partner, a master electrician partner, and we run that company as a separate company together. But the only company that we fulfill for is the sales org, right? So we create two companies that work together essentially right, and there's all kinds of tax incentives and implications that can happen there too.

Speaker 2: 27:41

So, like I had this whole plan for it, but it didn't work. If we were overpaying on the sales side, we had to invest in the installers, cause that's an issue with the business too, and we're seeing it today. So many install companies are folding up right On the solar. Why are they folding up? Because they were willing to take pay cuts and red line reductions and stuff like that to get the big sales orgs to feed them, and now they can't even operate cause their financials aren't there. You know what I mean. So they're going belly up.

Speaker 2: 28:12

And so I knew I was like we've got to take money away from the sales side and give it to the install side so the customer can be taken care of. Cause there were so many issues because so many installers were cutting corners cause they weren't getting paid enough, right, and so I saw this happening and me and my VP just didn't agree. He was very about his sales teams, which I respect. He was very about his guys and making sure that they got the best commission possible and I said, well, we don't have much more to talk about that, and so I don't know that that was necessarily a core value issue to me. It was because of the integrity piece of a salesperson getting paid you know $67,000 on a you know 12 kilowatt deal or something like that. It's just insane to me. That's way too much money for a one hour close. It just didn't make sense. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, and so.

Speaker 2: 29:03

So that was where we came to a head there and I was. I was at that point in my life where it's like, man, I've proven. At that point I think I had collected like 30 or 40 K and consulting fees. You know, I've proven that I can. I can make money outside of this business that I've been running for the last 14 years. And I did. I just I was. I was tired of being let down. I was tired of not operating on core values, so I made the decision to scrap the whole thing.

Speaker 1: 29:34

You know, you know, um, I don't know if you've noticed this, you probably have, but this is. I'll go into some of the things you said, but from a solar industry perspective, you see everybody turning on solar, even solar people turning on solar. You see all the shit that's getting talked about solar and sales orgs and how it's a scam. Like bro, you didn't eight months ago, you were trying to come on, come on, and so I just I think it's really interesting, though, that you and we've we I know this because we've talked about it, but I know that you score similarly visionary integrator. I know you're not, you're not real heavy on one or the other, you're very so like, but visionary perspective, I think it's really interesting that you four saw something that I agree it's a core value issue being unwilling to cut commissions, to reinvest another part of the. Because, if you think from a visionary perspective, hey man, the market is changing and we have an opportunity, from an integrity standpoint, to take care of clients better and grow this to a 10, 15, 20 million, I can take care of all the sales reps that we want in three years if we can just allocate some investment elsewhere and build this the right way, I think I think I remember you talking about this in a fly-in or a couple of times.

Speaker 1: 30:43

You were like we were talking about what it looks like to bring on in-house, install a team and all this stuff, and but I agree, I do think it's a core, so and that's, that's a, that's a fine line too, like every disagreement is not a core value issue, right, right, right. But in when you're in that scenario, I happen to agree with you that there is definitely and I I respect it too protect your salespeople. But you're right, do what. You couldn't go from six to 4k. You couldn't take a 2k per deal. Hit maybe, make, maybe make 30, 40 grand, like some of these guys were making 400 grand a year selling an hour closes. But it was, it's not, it was never sustainable.

Speaker 2: 31:23

Like, no, it made no sense. You know, and, and the conversations I would have with other individuals, other you know, solar companies that were doing well, mainly on the sales side, was like, oh, you got to change with the marketplace. You got to accept that Cause I came from cable right, we're making $200 a sale. You know what I'm saying. But we're doing volume, you know, and I'm like I know I can do this with, I know I can do volume with solar, but you got to have the brand backing. The reason we could do volume is cause we had AT&T's brand backing right.

Speaker 2: 31:55

So you got to build that brand and nobody was building brands, nobody was just building sales teams. You know, and when you build a brand, that is that is your top salesperson. If I, if I built a solar brand in Corpus Christi, san Antonio and Houston those are the main markets we operated in and and and and we executed on that plan right now and every customer that we signed up was a raving fan. Yeah, we'd have 20 sales a month from referrals alone. Yeah, and boom, you got a seven, eight million dollar company. Boom, just like that, 100%.

Speaker 1: 32:28

And I thought that this was intended conversation topic. But, like for the solar side, like I never even really saw the solar providers building brand like AT&T right, like I didn't even really see them branding themselves. It was really just a push on the sales orgs to do all of the work. It's almost like they knew. It's almost like they knew bro, like cause they never put the money effort. Like I read the other day, pepsi I think it was $42 billion Pepsi spent in 2022 on marketing and branding 42 billion. And I don't know like it's Pepsi, but like any company that believes in itself from a longevity perspective, it's all going in because their marketing is there's a lot of that is branding out of that 42 billion, I don't I'm not going to even pretend to guess the number, but guarantee you it is billions and billions of dollars on just branding activity alone, sponsoring this. That's it. And I never saw the solar companies branding themselves. It was just the sale. It's like.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I don't know.

Speaker 1: 33:25

I said it's just like they knew, like they knew this is recruiting their marketing is their recruiting process?

Speaker 2: 33:30

You know, yes.

Speaker 1: 33:31

And I had clients that was coaching one on one clients in 2022. And, like I had a few of them come to me like dude, I think I'm going to add solar to my son. I'm like what, why? They're like well, I got this buddy and he's doing 30 grand a month and he's selling seven hours a week and I was like your buddy's full of shit, like you're, this is not as. Don't do that. You're going to lose your main business going and doing it.

Speaker 2: 33:55

Show me the installs Right Right. Show me the customer journey Show me the deliverable.

Speaker 2: 34:01

Yeah, yes, I had to fight tooth and nail to make sure my customers were taken care of, because that that journey is painstaking and it's because there's so many individual companies involved throughout that journey. If you don't have it in house, there's so many individuals involved throughout that aren't on your timeline. The market's good, I'm going to make money, no matter what this, you know, pissed off sales or doesn't really matter. You know what I'm saying and you can't deliver good customer service with that. So you know, and I'm not saying all this, say bring it all in house. I'm saying all this to say, like, if you can't bring it in house, then you better be visiting your installer once a week, visiting your job sites once a week and inspecting what you expect 100%, because if you don't, that customer is going to get screwed over and it's going to be on you, not the install.

Speaker 1: 34:55

So would you take that, that advice, which I love, right Inspect what you expect and as a sales organ because let's take solar out of the equation we have roofing exterior, interior. There's a lot of home service. That is sales org based with a subcontracted production side of things, right? Do you believe that what you just said applies to all of them, like we're going to?

Speaker 2: 35:19

go? Yeah, I would, I could. Even with all my skills that I have, I could not start a roofing company tomorrow without a partner that could get up on a roof and know everything that was happening at any given time. Any opportunities Like there, there's no way, and so you should have that inside of your business. If, if somebody inside your business does not understand could not go right now, hire five guys and put a roof on, then you don't need to be in the roofing business. If you're expecting your installer to have all that knowledge and to follow through with everything and hold it to your standard, there's no way You've got to have that knowledge inside your company, whether you're sales org or not.

Speaker 1: 35:58

I I we have a resident construction expert on staff at all times, a person who knows more than anybody else could ever know, and that person gets compensated very well and they are very trusted. But I believe that every organization needs that. You can become that if you want to, but it will slow. I believe it will slow the rate of your company. It's exhausting to be sales, to be sales leader and expert and handle marketing Cause that's probably what you're doing If you're in that particular role and become expert and I'd rather just I'm with you, I'd rather have a partner and expert partner and do what I do best and they do what they do best, and the reason that I just to illustrate your point, the reason I was able to build my company so fast.

Speaker 2: 36:43

We went from, you know, one manager to 110 salespeople in three years. Right, that's fast.

Speaker 2: 36:50

One manager. That one manager had two years industry specific experience and training from the best in the nation, in door to door right. And then the second manager that I hire was my, my VP, that we just had a discussion about, and he had been in sales for 20 years and what they had in me was the designer, the integrator, the visionary you know what I'm saying All built into one, and so I was able to take what they gave me and scale it. You know, it's like jobs, like you know I'm not comparing myself to jobs, obviously, but it's like without. You know, without jobs, there is no wasniac. You know what I mean. And then same thing with Uber.

Speaker 2: 37:25

I don't know if anybody's watching that. What is it? Super pumped, yeah, on, on, on on Netflix. I watched that on some plane rides and it was just. It just illustrated that point so much. You can be a good operator or a good tradesman and a terrible business owner. And those who are bridging that gap, which is what you guys are doing with your clients you're bridging that gap. Those that are bridging that gap are going to be unstoppable, like you're talking about 24. Unstoppable.

Speaker 1: 37:53

I completely agree, completely agree. Okay, my next question this is a good segue. It's a poor value set, but you also, you talked about architecting your life, and you talked about this what I interpreted and you can correct me if I'm wrong but what I interpreted what you were saying as you prioritized you for the first time in probably a long time, and what I don't mean you in this selfish, I mean you. I identify me prioritizing myself when I we're talking about business, as prioritizing my wife, my kids, my health and fitness, my sleep, my food, closing the computer at a certain time I don't even have. Like I have like, no email on my phone, like I have a lot I've. The more boundaries I've set up, the more effective I've actually been in my career anyway, which is incredible, because I have found that, like, 30 minutes of intentionality with a client is more impactful, with a bigger ROI, than three hours of unfocused conversation where I'm just back and forth between 50 things.

Speaker 1: 39:02

My question to you, though, because when I started architecting my life, I don't know. I want to figure out how to articulate this properly. I guess what I'm trying to say is like I did not make it and then start setting boundaries and architect my life. What I did was took the advice of coaches, mentors, watching Mike, for instance, people like Mike and going okay, it seems like I will never make it to where I want if I don't start with architecting my life. It doesn't seem like it's going to work for me in reverse, because I tried that for a decade.

Speaker 1: 39:34

I got to get rich first, I got to build business first, I got to do this for and eventually all when I watched everybody I admired do was you fuck, all that. I'm going to architect the. I'm going to live my life exactly the way that God's designed it for me, in the best manner, with the most purpose and the most joy and the most fulfillment, and everything else is going to be abundant. And like that was hard for me to make the swap and actually be disciplined with it. So I want, could you, would you talk about that for a few? What was architecting your life and why did you start? What was the catalyst for that?

Speaker 2: 40:08

So the the tough thing is, people get this confused. They get the result of this, which is, you know, some people talk about business success like how, when you're intentional and you know, maybe we have six or seven good hours in us every day, instead of stretching it out to 10 or 12 and having five crappy hours inside of that, so you get more successful at business, right, because you're intentional and you're executing at a high level, right, and then and then. But to me, architecting my life is so that I can be successful at life, right. And so for the first, I did business all the wrong way, but I was successful at it. That's the problem is, the world will still reward you materialistically. Yes, not in your soul, but in everything outside the soul. Yes, the world will absolutely reward you for grinding and hustling and all these things. And don't get me wrong if you don't have the skill set yet to make those six to seven hours that you're architecting really profitable, then you need to work more, because you've got to obtain the skill set, you've got to get the reps right. Yeah, so I'm jumping all over the place, but I say that to say for the first 10 years of my career, it was very much. I was focused on the business and growing and scaling that and I did. I crushed it. I crushed it because I worked a lot of hours.

Speaker 2: 41:30

But then what I did is I began delegating. I began eliminating things, delegating things and really well, right, I got to the point where I was operating a two to three million dollar business consistently for four years in a row and I was going through my separation and my divorce. And I did this probably working 10 to 15 hours a week because I was highly focused on my kids, because we were going through the separation and divorce. So every you know, any drop of the hat I got to have my kids extra or any of that, and so it created motivation for me to work less Right, whereas before it was like, hey, if I, if I don't, if I don't work 50, 60 hours a week or I don't travel to this thing or go handle this thing or be the solution to everything, which I was.

Speaker 2: 42:21

I was very good at solving problems, so I was the solution for everything. Everybody called me with the problem, I would solve it. It didn't matter what time of day or what I had to do, because I had this. You know two and a half to five million dollar business that relied on me solving that problem that day, right Then there, right In my head, that's how it worked.

Speaker 1: 42:41

We get a little. We get a little addicted to that too. Oh yeah, get a little addicted to being needed. Oh yeah, I think yeah.

Speaker 2: 42:48

So sorry, I can take 100%. And so, you know, over time I got very good at operating the business and kind of architecting my role in the business, you know. But I ignored architecting my role in life as a, as a husband, Well, as a follower of God, as a husband and as a father, and so I was terrible at all those things. So my separation and my divorce shook me up to where, okay, I flipped it on its head and I started reprioritized, you know, and it became more about my faith. It became more about my significant other at the time you know what I mean. It became more about my kids, you know, and the kids went before any dating or any of that, right, and so I got very good at operating the business on 10 to 15 hours a week, you know. And so when I talk about architecting my life, I'm coming from that. And now, obviously, I'm working 40 to 50 again, but I'm coming from that and I'm understanding that. Hey, you know all the benefits I got from that the closer relationships with my kids, the reconciliation of my marriage, the stronger faith and more clear, open to connection with God. Those were all benefits from me reducing my workload and forcing my company to operate without me, you know. And so now I'm building this new company, but I'm intentionally building it in such a way that I don't lose that. Yeah, you know, I want to work 40 hours a week.

Speaker 2: 44:23

I was miserable, I was depressed when I wasn't, you know. But I have my barriers, I have my hard cutoffs, you know. I have my certain things that I won't do, you know. And so, like you said, no email on your phone. These are the little things that we put in place so that we stay the path, because if we don't have those barriers in place, we won't stay the path. So it, but it's difficult because I'm used to and I just put it out there, I'm used to anywhere from 250 to half a million dollars a year in personal income. I'm used to that. Right, I had a $20,000 burn rate a couple of years ago, you know. And so now, you know, I'm probably going to bring in personally maybe a hundred this year, you know, but if it's worth it, you're going to have to go through those bad years.

Speaker 2: 45:13

You know what I'm saying. I'm starting a brand new business from scratch, you know. And the fact that I can do that and probably going to gross, you know, over 300 is fantastic, especially in consulting. I mean, are you kidding me, like? And that's, that's a credit to everything I learned in 21 and 22. You know, there is some benefits, all that stuff we went through where you know we're. We're benefiting from that for sure, and the networks that we're in and the people we get to meet and doing things like this.

Speaker 2: 45:41

But I do on a daily basis. I have to remind myself you're starting a new business, you're doing exactly how you want to do it and you're doing it with your core values in mind and you're setting an example now for your kids, versus before. I had to hide things from them or there were things I wouldn't want them to see. You know what I'm saying I do. It's completely different that I can at any given time. They can walk in this office or they can. They can, I can answer a work call or something like that, and anything I would say on the phone to that client or to that friend, or nothing is hidden anymore. They need to hear it all because they're learning from at this point. You know what I'm saying, I do, and so that's just beautiful, you know, and that's why I decided to do that.

Speaker 1: 46:25

That. That got me all like I got a little sweaty, that made me like joyful to listen to. I know that sounds weird, but I, I, I like looking kind of that, like like you have a life balance sheet, so to speak, and you have like your equities on there, right, your assets, and I have. I have been over the past 12 months I've become a firm believer in like income financial income is is one asset, but like joy and love and time and energy, and like the, there's so many assets on that balance sheet that we miss and like I will, I'm with you, I'll sacrifice income Cause I really believe. I believe that those other income streams love and joy and my kids and my wife and God and like that relationship they're, they're worth so much more value and like then, income, never have to worry about financial income. If I really dive into this long enough, it won't matter anyway in the long term. It's funny though I can relate 100%.

Speaker 1: 47:33

There was a time and it was very it was like one and a half to 2 million in business. So, besides my business, I was working like 10 or 12 hours a week, miserable, like I'd spent one summer like playing Pokemon go with my kids like not knowing what to do. But when I, when I grew the business to 3 and a half million, it required 60 hours a week for me. Then, once we stabilized that revenue number, it didn't mean I didn't, it was back to 10 hours a week and not sure what to do. And so, like I like your point though just for anybody listening like I believe that everything is seasonal.

Speaker 1: 48:07

I believe that there are seasons of 60, 80 hours a week when you're going to have to grow through a season. But I believe that where a lot of people miss is like it becomes clear in our life that that season is over and it's time to rest. It's time to recover. It's time to stabilize. It's time to make sure net profits looking good. It's time to spend some time with wife and kids. It's time to get right with God. It's time to take care of ourselves. It's time to. It's time to. It's a lot like working out. You can train hard, you can play a full season of rugby hard, hard, hard. But when the season is over, you got to eat, sleep, recover, repair or you never, you're never good for that next season. And so, like I, like your track there.

Speaker 2: 48:48

You'll gradually become less and less effective. 100%, and then that's where you get the 40 year old entrepreneur that's miserable and jumping from opportunity to opportunity because they have the skill set, but it only works for a few months, correct?

Speaker 1: 49:03

It only works for a year and I believe.

Speaker 2: 49:05

I'm excited about the business you know.

Speaker 1: 49:07

And they haven't been excited about the business in a long time and that's like that self-awareness piece. And then you have, like the law of diminishing return. Right, You're like you said. They become less and less and less effective. You hit that season ends and you have to acknowledge it. So, like now, like I moved to founder, my business is going to grow probably 20, 25% into next year, 15% this year from last. So instead of a hundred, two, three, the business will go or grow organically 10 to 25% without me at all. I did it Like I won the Super Bowl business by being able to build that, that team and that structure in those processes. So, like now it's on to. Here's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 49:41

From January I'm embarking on a new journey and in my head I already know I'm entering a work season. I know that I'm entering, so what am I doing in this season? Podcast interviews. I baked cookies with my daughter the other day for four hours. I didn't do any fucking work. I baked because I'm in a season now where I have the opportunity to capitalize on rest, my children, my wife, removing cities on Friday and I'm focused where it's needed. But come January I'm already anxious and excited because work season is common. You know what I mean. So, hey, we are right at the end, but I will ask, because I always ask is there anything you would want to leave the listeners with, above and beyond the immense amount of value and insight that you've brought to this conversation?

Speaker 2: 50:26

You know we didn't talk documentation too much. So you know a lot of you guys listening probably I would say 70 to 80% of you don't have these three things documented 90.

Speaker 1: 50:37

Sales. Yeah, sorry, I'm dealing with a cold.

Speaker 2: 50:41

Yeah, your sales script, your opportunity structure and your sales flow right, and a sales flow just think of it as a customer journey from the time they hear about you to the time that they're installed and you're asking them for referrals, everything in between. And so those three things are typically where I concentrate probably 90% of my time when I'm building a sales program for a client, on those three things, and there's some things that can bolster them too, like with that opportunity structure. A scope of work is huge at each level in the opportunity structure and then on the script side, overcoming objections as well as prospecting activities in order to get to the point where they're actually executing on the script, right, and so there's ways you can expand on it. But at the end of the day, you need to start documenting. And it's crazy because they you know it makes sense you start with your trade, you know, you document the training for your trade, you document the SOP to install or to do the construction, or whatever the case is. You're dialed in all that stuff or it's all in your head hopefully not, but that's usually where you start and it makes sense, you know.

Speaker 2: 51:52

But most people neglect the sales process and the program and so if I leave you with anything, it's okay. If that convicted you or a little twinge went off or you're like, ah, fuck, the key doesn't know what you're talking about, that probably means that you need to do one of those three things. So get on it, get to it, and if you need any help, reach out. I'll help you any way I can.

Speaker 1: 52:15

How can they get a hold of?

Speaker 2: 52:16

you Salesprogrambuildercom and there is. I have three courses on there that are absolutely free. On salesprogrambuildercom it's my sales toolkit, it's the opportunity way to the key player opportunity structure. And the other one is like all my tactical episodes on video in one course of the podcast, all my solo episodes that are incredibly tactical. Those are all free and those are on salesprogrambuildercom Wow.

Speaker 1: 52:47

For any of you listening that don't go to salesprogrambuildercom and take advantage of what's probably a seven figure in value free courses. You are more on and I love you audience, but I mean that from the bottom of my heart and most loving and respectful way. So, doug, thank you so much for coming on. I'll see you in about seven weeks and we'll talk soon, brother.

Speaker 2: 53:14

All right, I appreciate you. Thanks, guys.

Speaker 1: 53:16

Hey guys, if this episode brought you value, please like, review, subscribe and, most importantly, if you don't want to like review or subscribe, I can take a hit. Please send this to somebody you think needs to hear it. That could be positively impacted by it. Till next time.